ophthalmology-off-the-grid
Ophthalmology off the Grid
Episode 89

Survive & Thrive: Building Your Brand

In this episode, host Gary Wörtz, MD, is joined by residents Cherie Fathy, MD, and David Felsted, DO. They discuss finding their voices as young ophthalmologists and share how they are beginning to establish their own personal brands.

Gary Wörtz, MD: Open, outspoken. It's Ophthalmology off the Grid. An honest look at controversial topics in the field. I’m Gary Wörtz.

Speaker 2: Welcome to another episode of Ophthalmology off the Grid’s Survive and Thrive series.

Today, our host Dr. Gary Wörtz is joined by Drs. Cherie Fathy and David Felsted. They talk about the importance of building a brand as a young ophthalmologist and why residency is the perfect time to start.

Coming up, on Off the Grid.

Speaker 2: Survive & Thrive is an independent program produced by Bryn Mawr Communications, and supported by advertising from Johnson & Johnson Vision.

Gary: Welcome to another special edition of Ophthalmology off the Grid. This is the Survive and Thrive version. Survive and Thrive has been a really fun project to work on with some of my younger colleagues. You've got Cherie Fathy and David Felsted, both are in training in different years of training, but they're in ophthalmology residency right now. You've met them on previous episodes.

Today we're going to be talking about building your brand. When you're a resident that may be the last thing that you're trying to do because you're trying to survive. I think this probably fits more on the thrive side of things, but we'll get into that in a little bit.

So, Cherie and David...Let's start with you Cherie. How are you doing, how are you managing in sort of the aftermath of the COVID crisis, and how are things where you're at right now? Let's just start there.

Cherie Fathy, MD: Hey, thanks again for having me on. I'm always appreciative and always have fun listening to the podcast and being a part of it. Things in Philadelphia are getting back to normal, which is so awesome to say finally. We are able to see patients, both urgent and non-urgent now, we were able to restart elective procedures, restaurants are opening up again. So it's been really exciting to get things going back to normal and, at least for someone heading into their third year, it's very nice to see that we might be able to get some sense of normalcy back when it comes to operating, which is just kind of like the golden promise here, so I'm excited for that.

Gary: That's right. David, how are things in Georgia?

David Felsted, DO: As you guys know, Georgia opened up first out of the country and, although we got a lot of flak for it, on our end we didn't really see a whole big spike in cases. We got back into operating, and although I felt pretty rusty, it felt like I was riding a bike too and got back into things in the OR. We're seeing regular clinic patients. We're not at full capacity or full volume. We still have patients that are worried about coming in and I think that will slowly get back to reality into normalcy. My wife and I did go bike to a restaurant and eat outdoors. That was kind of nice, so it's fun to start doing some of that stuff again.

Gary: Here in Lexington things are starting to get back to normal as well, so that's good. We are seeing patients and doing surgery. We're probably getting close to half capacity, maybe inching towards two thirds capacity. We get both, some patients who are really, really itching to come in. It really seems like LASIK patients and younger folks are actually very bullish on coming in, and it's the older patients that you'd expect who are maybe feeling a little bit gun shy at this point still, but it is exciting. My wife and I are going out to dinner tonight for the second time, that'd be the second time going to a restaurant. We're eating out on a patio again. I've never been more excited to go eat on a patio, so we're all getting back to sort of a new normal.

We're going to talk today about building a brand, and as I mentioned in the intro, that's something, when I was a resident, I wasn't even thinking about. I was just thinking about trying to stay awake during grand rounds and…conference, getting my patients seen, not breaking the capsule when I was doing cataract surgery and just getting out of residency alive. Cherie, when you think about building your brand, is that on your mind right now as a resident? Is it something that is in the ether that is nebulous and you're not really sure what that means or how it could impact you? How does the topic hit you just thinking about it?

Cherie: I'd definitely say in the first few months of my residency it was a little bit on the back burner. Like you said, I'm just trying to get my feet wet and learn as much about ophthalmology as I can and get comfortable. But there became a time where it was so nice to have that virtual community that you can find on social media, like Twitter platform or Instagram, where you find people who have been in your shoes or are going to be in your shoes and to get that community again, where you can share ideas or just get inspired by people, that I found myself going back to those platforms and as a result, trying to build my own voice within them. It's definitely in the beginning. It's just sort of, like you said, it's like a sink or swim, but at some point, it's really nice to have that community open up again because it reminds you of why you're doing what you do beyond your little fishbowl.

Gary: Yeah. I do think social media is a wonderful platform. It really wasn't around when I was a resident for the most part, but it is interesting how residents can interact with each other, they interact with medical students, interact with attendings or other people who have been out there for a while like myself. It's kind of cool that we get to have conversations that maybe we couldn't otherwise. David you're coming into the latter stages of residency. You're about to make that switch into the next phase of your career. What does the term “building your personal brand,” how does that strike you? Is that something you've been giving you thought to?

David: Yeah. I thought a lot about this as we got ready for the podcast today. One thing that came to my mind is that we tend to rebirth ourselves frequently throughout the steps we take in our training, both as an undergrad, as a med school student, as we get into residency, even different phases of residency. I basically built my brand through Instagram and I didn't just sit down one day and say, "I'm going to build my brand." I just did it organically. I did it because I thought it was fun. I started posting pictures of what I did in the operating room, what I was doing at home with my kids, how I studied, projects I was working on around the house, things I was tinkering with, and so for me, that's my brand, that's who I am. Mine is more of a medical lifestyle.

I think the people who grow their brands the most, people I look up to like Dagny Zhu, they do it organically, and they have a knack for it too. They know how to network, and they use their network to their strengths. I had a medical student reach out to me who just graduated and is pursuing ophthalmology…and he wanted to know, "How do I grow my presence on social media?" He seemed pretty concerned about it, and I thought, "You know, I don't want to overemphasize the need to do that," because I think as the baby boomers age and we have an increased need for ophthalmology, I'm not quite sure...I guess the question is, how much does personal brand and growing your personal brand translate into patient volumes and your abilities out in the field? I don't know the answer to that question, but it's something I keep thinking about.

Gary: That's really interesting. I don't know if you all have heard of Naval Ravikant, but he's got a podcast that I love. It's called How to Get Rich (Without Getting Lucky). It's not really about making money, it's really about how to operate in the world as an entrepreneur, as a businessperson, as someone who's trying to make their way. It's like, if you never had any business training, it's like a three-and-a-half-hour podcast that gives you all the basics that you really need to know about life and entrepreneurship and business, and so I'd highly recommend it for anyone who's interested in learning more about business because we just, in medical school or otherwise, unless you seek it out, you just don't get that training. So, there's a lot of truths in that podcast that I just really loved.

One of the things that he was talking about, I don't mean to downplay this, but he says one of his pithy remarks is he talks about people who either play the money game or the status game. The status game is like a zero-sum game, where if someone wants to go from the fifth most popular ophthalmologist to the fourth most popular ophthalmologist, the fourth person has to vacate that spot, right? It's not like everybody can just keep becoming more and more popular, it's this sort of “King of the Hill” kind of game, whereas, the prosperity game is something where we can all... it's sort of like the rising tide floats all boats, you doing more cataract surgery, unless you are in my network or my area, it's not really taking away from me.

So, I do think that in some ways we sort of play a status game and don't really realize that we can do that organically, which I think is probably the best way to do it. Some people are really gifted at it like, Dagny, I think Blake Williamson, who is a super good friend of mine and cohost of Off the Grid. That's just Blake. You meet Blake, and if you've seen them online and you've seen him in person, same thing, it's the same Blake. There's is no branding, that's just him. That's just how he is, which is really... and I think, David, same way with you, you're just giving a glimpse into your authentic self.

I think that's probably the only way it works, because if you're building it on something that's not authentic, people eventually figure that out. Cherie, how does that hit you? What do you think about that? In terms of trying to build a consistent brand, I think you want to build it on who you are.

Cherie: A hundred percent. I think one of my initial hesitations, when I was deciding whether I make a profile public or not, was the sense of, would I then be seen as someone who was trying too hard or trying to just have a profile for the sake of having one, which is quite possibly the antithesis of who I am. So, when I went to make my Twitter profile less about communicating with just my friends or I just recently started a professional Instagram profile, I really tried to make it as true to myself as possible, and I'm still trying to figure that out. In fact, I'm still trying to figure out exactly what my voice is, especially when it comes to the Instagram profile. I don't know that I'm a person where I can dole out a lot of advice just yet in my career, so I don't necessarily feel the pull to post things like, "Oh, this was my day. Here's what I learned," or something. So, I'm trying to more share my hobbies and my interests and to make a community based off of that.

Definitely I want my profiles to be something where if you met me in person and you had seen my Twitter or my Instagram, you'd recognize that I love sharing results of new studies as much as I love sharing silly cat videos. Yeah, I am who I am both online and not, and a lot of that is important when you're building your brand, trying to figure out what your key interests are and, like you had mentioned, just making sure that it's really something that comes naturally to you, that is truly of interest to you.

Gary: Yeah. David, where do you draw the line with what you share? Because I struggle with that. In 2016, during the election, I quit Facebook. I had been on Facebook for 8 years. It really was probably one of my most beloved activities. That's embarrassing to admit, but I loved Facebook. I felt like I connected with people from lots of different stages of my life, back from elementary school all the way through training, and it was nice to connect with people, but at some point, I felt overexposed. I felt like, patients can possibly view this. If they're a friend of someone who's a friend of mine, they're going to be able to look at my profile.

I actually had some criticism from some optometrists because I posted something like, I think I said something along the lines of, "Twenty of the past 34 hours I've been operating," or something like that because I just had two marathon surgery days, basically went home and slept and came back and just operated, just to kind of finish up the year. The comment, which was probably a helpful comment was, "If someone had a bad outcome and that thing you posted on Facebook, it sort of says you were fatigued, and maybe you should not have been operating," almost like a pilot needs a certain amount of time of rest.

I felt like I was a little bit under the microscope of, if I post the wrong thing and someone is either offended by it, doesn't get the joke, thinks that I should be doing something else when I'm doing whatever I am doing, I don't know. Do you guys...David, do you feel that pressure and of like, "Should I post this, or should I keep this private?"

David: Yes, I've thought about that a lot. There are definitely things you need to stay away from. Number one is HIPAA. HIPAA compliance, that is a major minefield in social media, and if you post anything patient related without any consent, any patient identifiers, you're really putting yourself and your license and your career at risk, so that's number one.

Number two, I think a lot about my children…their future, how's it going to be impacted by what I share about them now? So, I'm really careful in that regard. Then three, when I post anything, it's your digital footprint, I think you mentioned that last podcast with us, and I thought that was just really great words of wisdom, anything you post online now, it's just permanent on the record and whether you like it or not, it's cached away somewhere on some hard drive.

You just have to be so thoughtful about what you're posting, the context of your posting, who's in it, and what you're saying. I actually quit Instagram right as I started my third year, because I was going on the job hunt and the fellowship trail, and I didn't want anyone to jump to any conclusions about what I was doing. I just wanted to make my own decisions and not have them be swayed or influenced by what people were looking at my Instagram profile about. Then when COVID hit, I just jumped back into it.

Gary: Yeah. My daughter is a freshman, just finished her freshman year at Furman University. My son is going through the college hunt right now, he's a rising senior. He is not involved with social media at all, which, that's fantastic, it's fine, but one of the things that college admissions, the first thing they do is they pull up your Instagram, your Snapchat, your Facebook, and all your social media, and they look to see and get a sense of what kind of a person you are. We're living in an age when our grandchildren will be able to Google us. That's weird, and it won't be Google, it'll be whatever the search engine is at that time. Maybe it will be Google, I don't know.

Switching gears from social media, because I think we could talk about social media a lot. I am not an expert. You can follow me if you want. My Twitter handle is @cataractMD. I try to stay in a couple of lanes. One lane is obviously cataract- and ophthalmology-related things with residents and sort of mentorship and other interesting inventions in ophthalmology.

The second thing is Rex Chapman videos. Rex Chapman was a UK basketball star and NBA star, and he posts the funniest videos, so I love Rex Chapman videos, and basically cat videos. That's pretty much it. So, if you are a fan of any of those three things, I think you'll find some value in what I do, otherwise it's total garbage. So, let's talk a little bit about really building your brand with industry.

I'm sure you all have had...you've had an interesting window to observe ophthalmology. You see the meetings, and I'm sure you see the magazines that come on a monthly basis, the articles and the journals, all these things, webinars, and you see what we call key opinion leaders, and they sort of have these curated brands. When I say Warren Hill, what do you think of? Probably IOL calculations. When you think of Ike Ahmed, Cherie, you probably think glaucoma, right? Dr. Glaucomflecken, I think of someone who's hilarious. Bill Trattler, cross-linking and keratoconus. Now all of these people do more than the thing I just said, but it's interesting that they've all found a lane where it's mentally very easy for me when I think of, "OK. Who's like the top couple of glaucoma people?" Ike, Malik Kahook, Nathan Radcliffe, boom. It's like easy to think of.

It's not that Nathan Radcliffe couldn't give me a good lecture on dry eye, of course he could, but that's not his brand. His thing is talking about glaucoma. Preeya Gupta could give me an awesome lecture, I'm sure, about MIGS or other things, but I know her more for refractive cataract surgery and dry eye. So, what do you think about... and Cherie, I'll start with you also, when you are done, do you feel like consulting with industry will be something that you'll be interested in, and what topics do you think you'll be most interested in if the answer to that question is yes?

Cherie: It's definitely something that I've always been interested in, just from the sense of that you can learn so much in these conversations and meetings with the consulting companies and the people who work with them. I definitely want it to be something that I have a niche in, I guess, and as a result, there's a natural complement towards how I could benefit a consultant company and how I could help patients with it.

I am, at this point, planning on a cornea fellowship at an anterior segment practice, so it would probably be something within that lane. As I get more into surgery, I could probably tell you more about where I could be particularly interested in consulting. At this point, I'm really open to just seeing what I love most in surgery, how I can most help patients, and then hopefully, if there's a nice relationship that complements each other that I'd be able to get involved.

Gary: Yeah. When I got out of residency, I thought I really want to be someone whose name is out there. What's weird about that is, I didn’t know why. I didn't really process like, "Why do I want to do this?" My partner gives me a lot of flak for this. He's like, "Just do surgery. You don't need to be running around doing these chicken dinner talks. You don't need to be extending yourself and talking about BS that no one cares about. Just stay home, do surgery, live a good life, don't worry about it, it's all BS," and I thought about it and I was like, "You know, that's probably true," but honestly, I was the kid who always wanted to be the lead in the play, right? I love the sound of my own voice. It's sad. It's true though. It's just who I am, all right? I like talking about stuff, I like thinking about things, I like putting myself out there.

So, for me, part of my authentic brand is, I just like talking about stuff, I like sharing ideas, I like having conversations, I like spit balling. I don't love email, but if you wanted to pick up the phone and call me, I would talk to you, because that's just how I am. So, for me, consulting and doing these talks and doing this stuff, that's just kind of fun for me. And if you get paid a little bit or you get a little bit of credit, it always feels good for somebody to tell you that you did a nice job.

So, I think there's certain personalities that are drawn toward doing these things, and for whatever reason, I guess I'm in that camp. So, David, is that something interests you going forward, and like Cherie said, and she said, very astutely, I don't want to minimize this, you have to get the training and expertise, right? You can't start with, "I'm going to start moving my mouth and say what everyone wants me to say." You have to have the expertise and the credibility to back that up, and that's hard when you're just getting out there and you're trying to establish yourself as a credible ophthalmologist, let alone, a world expert, but is that something that you're interested in pursuing moving forward?

David: Yeah. I would say absolutely. I got into ophthalmology from a mentor in Salt Lake City who is very well known in the field, and I got interested in the technology the most, I was hooked on that. So, for me, industry, it's just fun because it's always at the leading edge of what's the neatest new thing, and I would consider myself an early adopter, kind of the pioneer, from that standpoint, trying things out.

The question I actually wanted to ask you, Gary, is, do you need a fellowship in order to become something of that nature, to consult and to be a speaker. Obviously, I'm coming out not fellowship trained, and I'm not at a point where I can offer medical expertise or consulting in that standpoint. I'm just looking to get started and get my feet wet in the operating room seeing patients. What are your thoughts on that?

Gary: Well, how much time do you have because I can talk about this for quite a while. I will say this. Among the people who I would say that I really look up to, respect, go to for advice, the people who I think are really at the top of their game, who I would consider people I really look up to, I don't know many of them who haven't done a fellowship. Now, I don't know if that is like, which came first, the chicken or the egg, if it's just selection bias that people who are really high performers tend to overachieve and overachievers tend to get more training, and if they hadn't done a fellowship, maybe they would be just equally fantastic ophthalmologists. I don't know. It just so happens though that 99% of them have done a fellowship, and they almost all did a fellowship with Dick Lindstrom.

So, if you can do a good fellowship, I think there's a lot of benefits, not only the extra training, but you gain credibility by proxy, by the people who will speak up for you. I think that is very important when you are at a young, vulnerable stage in your career, when someone like Dan Drury or Dick Lindstrom can make a phone call and say, "Hey, I had this resident. I had George Waring IV as a resident. He was fantastic. He's got great hands and he'll be a fantastic addition to anywhere he goes," or again, Preeya, she did the fellowship with Dick Lindstrom. I can go on and on. So, I think that there is a bit of a club or a fraternity of sorts that, for better or worse, you can become a part of, and people like to take care of the people who are in that club. I don't fault anyone for that. It's just the way networking works.

I did not do a fellowship. I think you guys know that. I kind of did a clinical fellowship with my partner, Lance Ferguson. He trained me in LASIK and refractive surgery, so we did a mentorship/fellowship, on-the-job training, but it was not a traditional fellowship, so I don't really have that in my back pocket. For whatever reason, I've always just gone about things the hardest way possible. If I had to do it all over again, I would probably do a fellowship and try and get a normal job, but I decided to start a practice right out of residency with no fellowship and fall flat on my face and get a lot of experience.

We learn so much by our experience and our failures and realizing that there's a lot we don't know in this world, and if you're willing to accept the failures and you're willing to listen and learn from your experiences, I don't know that there's one path forward that will inform you. I think the faster and harder you fail, if you can grow from that, you will become successful more quickly. So, I think a fellowship is sort of like an easy button, you're going to get some benefits, you're going to develop some skills, you're going to get some credibility if you do a good job, but by no means is that the only way to move forward.

I think every person is just going to have to answer that for themselves. Looking back on it, just to be very honest, I had two kids and just so much debt, I literally just could not have afforded financially to survive another year on a resident’s salary. It really just wasn't a financial option for me. I say that with all sincerity. I just couldn't afford to do a fellowship. I couldn't do one more year of training. I had to go out and get a job. I just did what I had to do, and the rest is history. So, it can be done, but it is the road less traveled. I guess that's part of my brand, right? My brand is just doing things the hard way.

Cherie: I was thinking it's off the grid. You're doing things off the beaten path.

Gary: Right, you just try things.

Cherie: Right.

Gary: I think the best things in life happen when you just are willing to try stuff and treat life like a grand experiment. If something fails, failure isn't final unless you're completely bankrupt or you lose your life. If you can stay away from those things, just pick yourself back up and keep moving forward. I think a lot of times we are in our own head about, "Oh, what happens if I don't get X, Y or Z?" Well, just move forward, pivot, change your mind. I guess that's a philosophy I've developed over time.

One thing I want you guys to ponder, you don't necessarily have to have an answer for this, but this is another thing that was in Naval's podcast, the one I mentioned earlier. He talks a lot about specific knowledge. Specific knowledge for him is something that is a unique skill, something you're naturally good at, something that has come to you at various points in your life, where you just have a knack for something. It might be business, it might be communication, it might be, you fill in the blank. It's really something unique to you.

I think for building a brand, it's kind of like Simon Sinek’s Start With Why. You need to know why you're doing something, but I think you also, as important or more importantly, need to figure out what you're good at and what your special skills are that you can offer. Cherie, you were mentioning this earlier about getting your training and developing your expertise, but we're all going to learn, we all have the BCSC books, we're all going to go through OKAPs, we're all going to do our board tests, etc., but every one of us are going to have something unique to offer to ophthalmology. As I was preparing for this and thinking about that, I think one of the things that I would say is my specific knowledge is I like to create simple solutions for complex problems.

Something that I found that if I look back over the things that I've done, there's always been something where I've taken a problem, tried to dissect it, try to come up with an elegant, simple solution, and that cycle has repeated itself. So, for me, as I continue to build my brand and try to give something back to ophthalmology, it's always going to probably include something along those lines.

Cherie, do you have anything that you've thought of where it's like, "Hey, this is my specific knowledge," or "This is the area that I feel like I'm going to be able to give back or consult or speak?"

Cherie: Yeah, definitely. It's always a work in progress. I always like asking people actually, when they think of me, what comes to mind, and it's really good to have people in your corner who you can just say, "Hey, top three things that you think of when you think of me," and a common thread that a lot of them will tell me is in a sort that I'm a storyteller. It happened after my mom passed away. When I was younger it was a really difficult process for me to talk about, so I ended up turning to writing. My mom was a writer, it's in my family blood, and for me it's a great way to honor her. So, I have a huge passion for, oftentimes, dissecting what's going on in my head on a pen and paper, or nowadays, on the computer.

So, before I got to residency, I used to write for Huffington Post, and I wrote a few pieces for KevinMD and Washington Post, and it was just the opportunity to be able to dissect what was going on in my world, oftentimes patient related, and be able to share that from a trainee's perspective or a physician's perspective, and it's something that I hope I can continue to do just because I think I have the good fortune of being able to take care of people who may not always see where things are coming from, from a physician's perspective. I think especially in ophthalmology, I can't think of too many voices that are in the lay literature in terms of a storytelling format, either sharing their patient experiences or just sharing how they see things happening in the world. So, I hope that's something that I can continue to do and give back in.

Gary: That's fantastic. What a wonderful example. David, that's a hard act to follow. Any thoughts on areas where you feel like it's not really work, it's just something that comes natural to you?

David: So, Cherie, I have not written for the Huff Post or the Washington Post. I'm happy that I was able to publish in just some small journals, and I think for me, I'm a DO, and I'm like one of eight that matched in my year. So, I trailblazed in that and I wrote an article about that, and I think that's where I got some of my credibility of, "How did this guy do it?" because it is very, very hard to do. So, I look at that and I think, "OK, well if I could do that, what else can I do?" My wife always tells me I'm a master of no trades, but a Jack of many, and I enjoy learning how things work and how to figure them out.

So, as I step into the private practice realm and I cross with industry and start working with industry more, I think I just really want to get involved with technology, use it, figure out what's the best way. I can't see myself being just a world-class, top leader in ophthalmology. I won't be the number one ophthalmologist, and I'm okay with that. I think we're always constantly renewing and reinventing ourselves. As I was thinking about this podcast, I thought, "Well, what are the different categories of branding yourself?" You can be an academic, a subspecialist with excellent knowledge, you can be really great with technical and surgical expertise and abilities, or maybe you're just really good with interpersonal skills, social skills, and speaking skill,s and you know how to use networking. Maybe you're great at content production, maybe you advance the field in technology, or maybe you're an organizer or a leader. Maybe you make a really great podcast

Gary: Or even a mediocre one.

David: No, it's really good. I love it.

Maybe you're just a solo guy, and that's your brand, and you just want to run your own little shop and then tailor it to the one individual that you see every 3 months. So, I think the number one thing I learned as I have gone through this is, is that we all run our own race, and we all run at our own pace, and we should be very content with that.

Cherie: I have to say, Dave's one of the people who's really inspired me on Instagram, and one of my favorite things is to watch as he like takes apart something completely and then reassembles it. It's something I'll never be able to do. I'm always fully impressed by the end, as you can tell by the messages that I send to him afterward. It's like radios, bikes, you think of it, he's tinkered and recreated it. His Mac keyboard...

David: Desperate times, desperate measures.

Gary: That's right.

Cherie: I'm always impressed.

Gary: I think it's also really interesting that we can always see it in someone else. It's hard sometimes to see it in ourselves as special, because if it comes easy to you, you don't really see it as unique or anything to write home about necessarily. Like Cherie, your writing probably just comes naturally to you, even though you put a lot of effort into it, but the way it might inspire other people, you might think, "Oh, that's kind of funny that it really hit him that way," and David, the same with you, "Oh, tinkering, that's kind of fun. I just sort of do this because it's interesting to me," but whereas other people are like, "Man, I could never do that."

I think that is the cornerstone. If you find that little nugget in yourself where you find that other people are impressed by it or sincerely appreciate it, but to you, it's like, "Oh, I don't know. I just like doing it," I think that's the bedrock and the cornerstone to build your personal brand. Obviously, you don't have to be pigeonholed. Cherie, you're going to be more than a writer, and David, you're going to more than a tinkerer, but I do think it's interesting to have that nucleus where you start building around that and start showing people different facets of your personality and how that can interface with your practice.

I think that's probably a good place to leave it. I really appreciate both of your perspectives on this. I've really enjoyed getting to know both of you better during this process over the past couple of months and look forward to exploring the rest of Survive and Thrive. So, thank you guys, very much for coming on again tonight.

David: Thank you, Gary.

Cherie: Thank you. Thank you as always.

Gary: OK. This has been another episode of Ophthalmology off the Grid, Survive and Thrive, and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 2: Thank you to our contributors for joining another episode of the Survive and Thrive series, and thanks to our listeners for tuning in.

This has been Ophthalmology off the Grid. Until next time.

Speaker 2: Survive and Thrive is an independent program produced by Bryn Mawr Communications, and supported by advertising from Johnson & Johnson Vision.

6/25/2020 | 36:27

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