Gary Wörtz, MD: Open, outspoken. It’s Ophthalmology off the Grid. An honest look at controversial topics in the field. I’m Gary Wörtz.
Working in a field as innovative as ophthalmology means that change is constant. To offer the best care available to our patients, we must continue to assess and often update our treatments and techniques. Ophthalmologists never stop being students of ophthalmology. But, for most of us, that’s a reward, not a burden.
My guest today is a quintessential lifelong learner. His passion for ophthalmic education runs the gamut, from his dedication to his residents, his investment in advancing the field, and his candid way of speaking about life, work, and the artful yet elusive balance between the two. This episode is dedicated to such real talk, with none other than Dr. Uday Devgan. Coming up, on Off the Grid.
Speaker 2: Ophthalmology off the Grid is an independent podcast supported with advertising by Alcon.
Gary: Welcome back for another episode of Ophthalmology off the Grid. This is one I've been looking forward to for so long. Today, we have Dr. Uday Devgan. Uday and I have known each other for a long time. Actually, we got to know each other a little bit through the ASCRS chat board, which, by the way, is a fantastic resource. The EyeConnect chat board, if you haven't been on there, is a fantastic resource to discuss cases, to learn from colleagues, and really get a lot of real-world information.
Uday and I started to get to know each other that way, and then I think it was back in 2010 at a really fun event at ASCRS in Boston, the event was called The Clink, and there was a hotel that used to be a jail, and they converted it into a hotel and had a big party there, and that's where Uday and I actually first met. We've been, I would just say, tremendous friends. I would say Uday is a mentor of mine. He's someone who I trust, that I go to when I have questions, and so there's been a major, I think, revolution of Uday Devgan, and I want to dig into that. With that being a preamble, Uday, thank you so much for taking some time to talk to me and share some opinions tonight.
Uday Devgan, MD: Of course. Good to catch up with you.
Gary: So, Uday, you were someone, and are someone, who has been tremendously active in, I would say, ophthalmology education as a topic overall. Whether that is with the residents at your local residency program or with colleagues or writing articles or talking or speaking or doing the live surgery, it seems to me as I look at your career, which is still really a young career, you've got a long way to go and we can't wait to see what happens, but your career has really already spread the gamut of ways of giving back, ways of making our profession better. I would just love to dive in there and get a little bit of your perspectives on education in ophthalmology and that can go in many directions, but maybe just start with what are you seeing in our residency programs right now in terms of applicants, and how are you involved with residency education?
Uday: Well, I think it's a fantastic time to be an ophthalmologist, and that's reflected in the increased number of applications we've seen. If you look at the San Francisco match data for ophthalmology residency, well, the numbers have been steadily increasing, which of course means we have more and more fantastic applicants. It's more competitive than it ever was. Personally, at UCLA at the Jules Stein Eye Institute, where I'm fortunate to teach these residents on a weekly basis at the county hospital as well as serve on the residency selection committee, the applicants are better and better every year. It's really amazing.
Gary: So not just smarter, you feel like they're maybe more well-rounded, they're better human beings. Maybe in every category just better.
Uday: Well, I think it spans the gamut here. There are a lot more people with additional degrees. It has become relatively common. I'd say maybe 20% to 30% of the applicants take a year off in med school to either do a master's degree or a year of research or research fellowship, a year at the NIH, something of this nature. It really makes them a more well-rounded applicant. It brings something a little bit different to the table. A lot of them have other degrees, MBAs, PhDs, various master's degrees as well. I really enjoyed meeting them at the interview process. It's really a fantastic opportunity to just sit one-on-one with what are going to be undoubtedly the future leaders in our field. Some people say that the new millennials are here and it's going to be different. You know what, it's going to be better. Yeah, there are different personalities than someone who is my age. I finished residency in the year 2000, but these guys are amazing. I have no doubt that in a couple of decades, one of them is going to do a beautiful cataract surgery for me.
Gary: That's awesome. It's funny when you think about that too. I think about our profession, and I think whatever we give back is what we get someday when we are the one who becomes the patient. When I'm thinking about new lens designs or optics, it's a little bit selfish. I want ophthalmology to be better because I want better options someday when I am the one laying on the table. It's an eventuality for all of us, really. I think you share that as well. What do you think about education beyond residency? I think our profession, and maybe others are like this ... I only see it in ophthalmology because of obviously that's my profession, and I don't have any other family members who are really deeply involved in other fields, but what do you think about education, meetings, being a key opinion leader after residency, and how do we educate ourselves, how do we share information, how is that changing, and how have you found that to be either fulfilling in some ways or maybe in other ways ... at some point, we can all get a little bit disenchanted with the process. Tell me a little bit about your journey in this whole realm.
Uday: For sure. Well, we obviously keep learning throughout our careers because, in ophthalmology, about our only constant is change. It keeps evolving. Most things are in evolution. On occasion, there's a revolutionary thing in our field, but it keeps changing. That's what we can look forward to. It's important for us to keep up. I talk to my residents now, and I say, "You guys have it harder than I did." They say, "Why is that?" I say, "Well, in the same 3 years of residency, they have to learn everything I learned plus things that didn't frankly exist." OCT didn't exist, anti-VEGF injections didn't exist. It's completely different. I mean, at our county hospital, we have plenty of diabetic patients. We used to do the CSME criteria, looking at an eye through a slit lamp, and then treat it with FML laser.
Uday: It's not done that way anymore. You get an OCT, you have an absolutely clear picture, and you treat it with an anti-VEGF injection. So different. I think it's important for all of us to keep up with learning. For me, going to the meetings and presenting on the podium was actually a very helpful way to learn. The best way to master a subject is to teach it. I remember years ago aspheric IOLs first came out, and we had to understand spherical aberration of the eye, Zernike polynomials, prolate, oblate corneas. I didn't learn any of that in residency, so I had to do my own self-education, learn these things, boil them down in my head, and make it so that I could present the topic with succinct slides that clearly showed what these things were. That process of making my talks absolutely allowed me to learn the material.
Gary: I found that exact same thing myself. You never want to walk into a talk because the reality is there's always going to be the naysayer sitting in the back heckling. At any talk, there's going to be someone whose God-given job is to heckle or try to poke holes in whatever you're presenting. Whenever I'm putting a talk together, I'm thinking about that guy or girl, it seems to usually be a guy for some reason, but I'm always having that person, that archetype in my mind that someone is going to try and poke a hole in this, and I better not be a mile wide and an inch deep on this topic. I need to go deep.
For me, I think maybe that's why I have turned down a number of opportunities because I just don't want to speak about something that I'm not passionate about or that I don't have depth in. We all have a limited number of hours in our day to be a good doctor or if you have a family, be a good husband and father, etc., and I know I just can't be excellent at everything, and I really have to stay in my lane.
Uday: I'm a lot like you in that regard in that I used to turn down talks that weren't about things that I didn't love or that I just didn't have a big interest in. I'll tell you now, I'm not the best businessman. In fact, I should learn from others. When it comes to actually doing cataract surgery, ah, that's my sweet spot, now I'm happy, or to teach it. Those things I truly enjoy. The other nice part about this, the amazing part when you think about it is the impact you have by teaching all these people, and they go out and help their patients. Well, I've had an indirect impact on an untold number of patients now, far more than I could ever operate on with these two hands.
Gary: Well, that I think is something that we should dive into because as a physician, we are sort of limited in our ability to scale our impact. If we just take our knowledge and our skillset and apply it to one patient at a time, even the busiest person may only be able to impact surgically hundreds, or maybe even a few thousand if you're really busy, patients a year. But, if you teach another doctor or teach residents and then they teach, it's really almost like that compounded effect, compounded interest. Your impact becomes astronomical.
I mean, I still remember Arpan Bachhawat, who was my second-year senior resident, teaching me how to do a capsulorrhexis. He was taught by Jeff Taylor, who was his senior resident. It's funny how you look back at your residency and your co-residents and how certain techniques evolved and were passed down through the generations. I'm sure it gives you tremendous pride when you're thinking about your residents now, but also you can think back over the years of making a little impact and then seeing those residents turn into board-certified ophthalmologists who are out doing amazing things. That's got to give you a tremendous sense of satisfaction.
Uday: Oh, absolutely. It's a financial hit, to be honest, to do academics because private practice is so much more lucrative, but I realize there are more important things in my life. The important things to me are, yeah, making this impact. It's something I was just meant to do. I just have a passion for it.
Gary: Well, one thing I've really been thinking about lately is once you are over the hump in making a living, and not to say that we don't all struggle with how much is enough, but once you've figured out how to make a living, I think it's important that you change your focus to how do you make a difference. It sounds like that was sort of your evolution, too. Am I right?
Uday: It really was. It really was. The tough part is finding balance. Finding balance in life is something I've not been great at in the past. I'm slowly getting better at it. In the past, I'd go to meetings. I'd do an international trip almost every month, sometimes every other month. I do probably a total of 30 trips a year to give talks. It was fun to be on the podium and be in front of an audience and get your points across and to see the country and see the world. I went to about 50 countries, but it came at a toll.
It's hard to be devoted to a busy practice at that time. It's also hard to spend time with family. Then you realize, as our kids are teenagers, they grow up so fast. It's why, in the last few years, I've pulled back. In the last probably 4 or 5 years, I've really pulled back from the meetings, and I travel very selectively now because I'd rather spend the time now with the kids before they head off to college. If they're going to be like me or like you, once they start college, we're pretty much out of the nest for good, and I'll miss them.
Gary: Well, my philosophy has kind of been that ... our kids are kind of similar of age, teenagers. I do have a finite amount of time with them, and once they're gone, I feel like that might be a time when I can have a little more time to really push the pedal if I want to be gone a little bit more. I'm not doing it at the sacrifice of being away from them.
Uday: Exactly. Exactly my feeling as well. I really enjoyed a lot of the podium and the travel and meeting other ophthalmologists, getting to know great colleagues across the country, across the world, and I'll get back into that. I just need 2 more years for my youngest to head off to college.
Gary: Well, Uday, we have been missing your voice a little bit, I have to say. I loved the pearls. Actually, I read the article that you wrote really about this topic, and that's what really jogged my interest in getting you on the podcast because it really did talk about your very intentional pullback from being gone from home and pullback from doing the number of talks and traveling as much. In doing that, what advice would you have maybe for younger guys or gals starting out, trying to make a name for themselves, who are hungry and really want to do that. If there is caution or wisdom that you can share, what would it be?
Uday: Try to find the balance that's right for you. Oftentimes, at the beginning of your careers, it's easier to get the time to do the traveling and the podium talks and the lecturing because you're not as busy surgically in your practice, plus your kids are either very young or maybe you don't even have kids yet, and you're less encumbered. I was telling you, one of the dumbest things I ever said to myself was when I was a senior resident and I thought I can't wait until I'm in practice because life will be so much easier. You think, as a resident, this is so hard, it can't get any harder than this, but it does but in different ways.
Gary: It does. It does.
Uday: And to find that right balance. Remember this, too: During your residency or fellowship, where you're doing a tremendous amount of surgery, when you're starting a new practice, you may start off doing a few cases only. No one really understands this as a resident, but when you're finished with your training, it may take you years to get over that surgical volume you were doing while in your training.
Gary: Well, what's so funny to me is it seems like the typewriter effect. Of course, they don't make typewriters anymore so probably anyone younger than me doesn't know what that even means, but it seems like in our career of training, it's like you go through college and then you learn all this. I was a chemistry major, and there was very little carryover to med school. It was like starting over from scratch in med school, and then learning everything about the human body, going through my internship and then starting residency was like going back to square one where we're basically learning everything about the eye. When you don't know how to even refract somebody, it's really humbling. Then you go through your residency, and then again, it's starting back from square one. For me, I started a practice, so that was literally starting over. There's been a number of times in my life. I guess I'm good at starting over just because I've had a lot of practice at it.
You're exactly right. As a resident, you have these illusions of grandeur maybe of how great things are going to be, and then you get out and you realize no, the challenges are ... it's not that they're not there, they're just different. There's not a predefined number or level of stress that those challenges can provide. As a resident, you kind of feel that way too, but you sort of know that there's an end. Once you start practice, the thing that's really difficult is it becomes much less structured in terms of where you're heading from day to day, and you're charting your own course for maybe the first time in your life because you've been in such a structured environment. Did you have any trouble with that when you came out of residency? Talk to me about your launch of your career after residency.
Uday: Yeah. I think everyone does. I think it takes you a while to find your right groove. I tell residents that, like your first girlfriend, you're first job may not be the one you stick with the rest of your life. It could be, but it may not be.
Gary: It's rare. Actually, it's rare.
Uday: Right. Well, same with having a girlfriend or boyfriend. It's very rare to have your first girlfriend be the only woman in your life the rest of your life. Similarly, I think you have to be prepared that my first job may not be my last and that's okay. That's totally acceptable.
Gary: It's not failure. I feared that that was a sign of failure, like I couldn't hack it or something was wrong with me. I've realized, no, it's a learning experience.
Uday: Right. The second thing is, even when you find the job that you love that's perfect for you, your career evolves over time. The first 6 or 7 years out of training, I did the full spectrum of general ophthalmology. I did strabismus surgery on kids, eyelid surgery; I did cataract, glaucoma, corneal transplant, diabetic lasers—the works.
Gary: One-stop shop.
Uday: Yes, whatever came through the door. I was so fortunate to have trained here at UCLA, which is an incredible residency program, where we do everything. I'm here at this county hospital, and my residents who saw a tremendous number of patients today, did all these surgeries, and the buck stops here. We don't refer out. We have attendings in all subspecialties, but they're not here every day. I'm fortunate enough at this hospital to only have retina fellows, so the other fellows we got rid of them so that my residents do all the glaucoma stuff, all the cornea stuff, all the peds, all the plastics, any orbital surgery, it's the resident and the attending.
The training is tremendous, but keep in mind then once you get your career started, then you'll pick up volume, pick up speed, and you'll have the ability to tailor your career, evolve it. I really don't want to do anymore diabetic retinas. Let me refer these out. You keep doing it. I am at my point now, in my private practice, literally 80% of what I do is cataract surgery, 20% is refractive surgery. That's it. You can't call my office and say, "Well, I need to have a glaucoma check." We don't do that.
Gary: Right. Uday, I'm the exact same way. Yeah, I've evolved my practice, and I knew this pretty early on that I really just had a passion for cataract surgery, and it's an easy procedure to love. It is very satisfying. I was actually talking to a young lady who is shadowing me who is a college junior, and she's thinking about ophthalmology, and I said, "Cataract surgery is sort of satisfying in the same way that the YouTube videos of cutting slime is satisfying." There are all these satisfying videos. I said, "Cataract surgery is kind of like that where you get this sense of immediate satisfaction by removing this ugly opacity from the eye and then planting this beautiful lens that just unfolds. It just gives you this sense of satisfaction."
For me, cataract surgery, I've just always had that passion for it. I was pretty quick to cut away other things just to get more and more busy, but you're exactly right. When you get out, you kind of have to scrap. You have to be willing to see anything. You've got to go in. You've got to go into travel. I don't know if you did any satelliting, but I was satelliting all over the place, actually to other states for a year and a half. It was insane, but I was passionate about it. I was willing to hustle. You talked about millennials a little bit. Do you feel like they have that same level of hustle, or are you seeing it maybe applied in different ways? What do you think about that?
Uday: I've seen in the applicants that we have or the residents we have in our program nothing but superstars. I mean, I'm looking here at a post. I'm sitting in the county hospital, we just finished a long day, I didn't get to see the sun today, it's a winter day here, but I got a post. We have eight residents a year, I got 24 faces on the wall in front of me, and there is not a weak link in the entire group. These guys are serious, they're super motivated, they work harder than ever. Like I told you, they learned everything we learned, plus all the new stuff in the same 3 years. I mean, it begs the question, when is ophthalmology residency going to go to 4 years, right?
Gary: Right, exactly.
Uday: There's so much volume of material to learn, but they pick it up fast, and they even see more patients because our clinic is busier than it was 10 years ago. They see more patients, and they do more surgery. Our senior residents routinely finish their residency with 300 cataracts.
Gary: Yeah, that's insane. I think I did over 200 at UK, and they're doing about 300 now there I think as well. It's really, really crazy. All right. I want to shift gears a little bit because I don't want to take too much of your time. I've got some other things I want to talk to you about. This is a broad question, but I really want to just hear your unfiltered opinion: Where do you think we're going in terms of a profession in refractive cataract surgery? You can take that in where do you think cataract surgery is going, future advancements, where are we going with lens calculations? I know you've been involved in the Ladas super formula. Where are we going with new IOL technology or even down the road with laser technology for either changing the lens power or corneal refractive surgery? Where do you see the giant ship of ophthalmology in the realm of cataract and refractive surgery? Where are we heading?
Uday: Great point. In fact, it's initially over our careers, over the last certainly 10 years, is when cataract surgery has been recognized as the most powerful and most widely performed refractive surgery.
Uday: It's certainly a mindset change, and I think it's the right one. The two products I'm working on are directly related to this. My two projects, I'm working with John Ladas, who was a co-resident with me, as well as Albert Jun, who is at Hopkins, and Aazim Siddiqui, who will be actually starting residency in New York. We have a proprietary and novel way of doing lens calculations, which is now incorporating an artificial intelligence nomogram. The results we're getting so far, we're obviously still in beta testing, are spectacular. The ASCRS meta-analysis of LASIK, which we consider our most exacting refractive procedure, was about 91%, 92% of patients, basically within a 0.50 D plano. We can now achieve that routinely in cataract surgery.
In fact, one of the things I'm going to have to do is twist your arm and get a couple hundred eyes of data from your practice and show you. We'll plot out using our way, and we'll plot out any other formulas you want as well to compare, but we're really getting more and more accurate. I think that's where we're headed in giving refractive accuracy. Do you need to have a lens where you can adjust the IOL power, whether UV light, whether YAG laser … do you need this if 90+% of your patients are hitting plano right off the bat? That's a question.
The second project I'm working on is a novel design accommodating lens implant. The lens is called the Juvene lens, kind of a play on youth. It's made by a company called LensGen, like next-generation lens. LensGen is based in Irvine, and it's run by my good friend, Ram Rao, and a fantastic team. It's a lens that's a very novel design, and it's provided a surprising amount of accommodation. I was lucky to do the first human implantations out of the US in 2015, and now we're continuing more and more trials. Results were promising enough that Hoya, the Japanese lens company, just invested $21 million dollars with our company, so I think we're doing something great.
Gary: You are doing something right. Definitely.
Uday: We're on the right track, but obviously it's still early and it just needs more longitudinal testing, more refinements, and that's what my projects are. I still work on those two projects. I've given up most other consulting contracts and relationships, only because I wanted to focus on family and then only a little bit of time on the consulting.
Gary: Well, I think that it's another idea of if you limit your projects to just a few, you can go really deep with them because you don't have a lot of things that are vying for your attention.
Gary: I think that, as professionals who are highly motivated and go-getters, we sort of feel like we have an unlimited bandwidth to achieve things. What I've realized is if I open too many channels, the relative amount of depth I can give to each channel suffers a little bit.
Uday: Of course. I look back at my old days of doing all the speaking and consulting and traveling, and it was how long can you make your disclosure lists?
Gary: Right, right.
Uday: Now, I want the opposite. How short can I make it? I just want a couple things, things that I really love and I'm really passionate about.
Gary: Well, I want to just say this. I've sort of been following LensGen from the side, and I am really excited about the technology that they're doing. I think the OIS website has a pretty good talk about LensGen, if people are interested. Am I right in saying that?
Uday: Yes, for sure.
Gary: Okay. I've seen it, so I assume it's probably still there. It seems like there's a fantastic team working on that, and we wish them nothing but the best of luck. The accommodating platform is something that is a huge unmet need, and we're all looking for the day when we can fully restore our accommodation. What about daily routines, self-improvement? This is kind of the start of the new year. Is that something that you believe in or not? I'm just kind of curious. I'm just throwing this out there as something that I'm curious to ask. There's not a right answer, but what are your thoughts on that?
Uday: Yeah, I think we should always keep learning, not just about ophthalmology, but keep our brains stimulated, but also keep setting goals for ourselves and make them challenging enough that you don't always succeed. I don't necessarily wait for a new year to have goals or resolutions or plans. I do it as I'm going through the year. One of my interesting projects was in the last probably 12 months or so I've gotten into speaker design, of all things.
Uday: Well, I always liked electronics as a kid. I think I made a mistake by not becoming an electronics engineering major in undergrad, but just to learn how to make your own amplifier at home is one. It's very easy to learn online. There's so many good resources. I'm also making actual speakers, where I'll measure the drivers, designing the crossovers, doing all the calculations. It's funny. I like it because it's a lot like ophthalmology. It's so mathematical.
Gary: Right. You're, I'm sure, designing the impedance and figuring out if you want to do 8 ohms or 4 ohms or ...
Uday: All the above. Yeah, in fact, that's the common misconception that a speaker has only a single impedance. There's a whole graph. The impedance changes over the entire spectrum of the speaker.
Gary: Right, right. I used to design speakers in high school, actually.
Gary: This is an offline conversation we can have, but I recently bought a toolbox from Home Depot and took some Polk speakers apart, put them in this briefcase style toolbox, and had this Bluetooth boombox that I've created from another set of speakers and a Bluetooth amplifier I bought off Amazon. There's some pretty cool projects if you are bored and can get into.
Uday: Yes. My kids ask me, "Dad, why are you reading all this stuff about speaker design?" I said, "Because I want to teach myself something new." I may not have that same interest in doing these speakers a year from now, maybe I'll have moved on to something different, and I probably will, but I'll do the same thing where I'll be self-taught, I'll really get in deep, and so I have an understanding of things in a deep way on that one topic. I think that's just the process of learning, and we love doing that. It's nice to take a break from ophthalmology. We're all passionate about ophthalmology. I'm like you: I could do cataract surgery every day and love it, but sometimes you need a little bit of a break.
Gary: Well, there's a great editorial by actually Malcolm Gladwell. It was actually in the journal Ophthalmology this month about how medical students do better if they are taken ... actually ophthalmology residents, I believe, if they're taken out of the clinic and study art. The whole idea is if we give ourselves a little bit of a break and we study things that are outside of our field, it actually allows us to bring more into our field because our mind is working in different ways. It's actually talking about all sorts of Nobel Laureates. They tend to have more hobbies than their other peers in their fields. I'm the exact same way.
Every year, I try to do something a little bit different. Maybe not on the year, maybe just a regular basis. I taught myself how to play guitar, I built a water balloon remote control mortar with my son. We were launching water balloons at guys playing golf in the backyard, so that's kind of fun. I love the idea of just teaching yourself a new skill, and it's amazing when I've done that, in some way there's some carryover into either skills transfer. Learning how to learn or reminding yourself how to learn a new skill I think is tremendously beneficial.
We've got a lot in common, Uday, beyond even just ophthalmology. Love talking to you. Look, you've got an open invitation if you ever have a project you're working on or you'd like to give us an update on the Ladas formula, we would love to hear about it. So I'm going public with this, I will commit to you a couple hundred eyes to help with this project. We would love to participate in that. We all need to do our part. If I can do that and that would be helpful, I commit to you right now that we will do that. Looking forward to helping on that.
Uday: I will get the email written tonight to get you plugged in. If anyone else wants to try it as well, the website is iolcalc.com.
Gary: That's awesome.
Uday: You can register. It's all free. There's no charge. I think you'll be impressed. We'll analyze your data for you and give you the results, and you can see just how accurate we're getting. I mean, one of the amazing things with the artificial intelligence portion of this is our neural net predicted and derived essentially the Doug Koch/Li Wang axial length modification for high myopes.
Gary: It did it on its own?
Uday: It did it on its own.
Gary: That's pretty awesome.
Uday: It's just crazy, and it is within 10% of the numbers that Doug Koch and Li Wang are using. Doug Koch has been one of my mentors, and, if I had a quarter of his brain, I'd be a genius.
Gary: Oh, yeah. Exactly.
Uday: It's amazing that it's predicted that, and it's predicted other things too that we're just kind of looking into now to see is this going to pan out? Really fascinating.
Gary: That is unbelievable. We want to keep our finger on the pulse of this, so please, as updates become available, if this is a way that you'd like to get the information out there, we would love to help out with that. Uday, we love hearing from you. We're looking forward to all of your future contributions. You've got an open invitation to come back on this podcast any time, buddy.
Uday: Thank you, Gary. It would be my pleasure.
Gary: As Uday described, the journey is not just about learning but evolving. On both professional and personal levels, we must keep searching for answers to the tough questions and reevaluating and reconfiguring as we go. Thankfully the current and future generations of ophthalmologists have mentors like Uday to help along the way. So, with that, I’d like to thank Uday for sharing his experience with us and thank our listeners for tuning in.
Up next, on Off the Grid, Drs. VK and Leela Raju, father and daughter ophthalmologists, discuss their charitable contributions to ophthalmology. We’ll take a global look at public health, quality of care, patient expectations, and more. Don’t miss it.
This has been Ophthalmology off the Grid with Dr. Gary Wörtz. See you next time.
Speaker 2: Ophthalmology off the Grid is an independent podcast supported with advertising by Alcon.